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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A few months ago I posted that I was having trouble starting my Charger and that red light would flash. I found out that red light is a security light. After, talking with a tow truck driver friend of mine, I learned that you do not jump or charge the battery by actually connecting to the battery. So, my battery had lost its charge, because it was so cold, so being old school I put my battery charger on the battery to charge. After that I was having the problem of starting my Charger and the security light started flashing.

Now, if I wait until the security light stops flashing, I hear the fuel pumps engage, and I can start the car. Usually, sometimes it only starts for a second then I have to wait another minute or so to try again. I ended up taking the car to the dealer. They replaced the WIN and cut new keys, but it was still giving them fits. Finally, they tell me they think either the back or both the back and front TIPM may need to be replace AND maybe the PCM. They quoted me $1000 for one TIPM and another $1100 (if they could find one and it would probably be used) for the other TIPM.

Granted, I'm no longer an ASE Mechanic, but I was certifiable back in the mid-70's; like I said I'm Old School. There must be a way to pull a TIPM and check to see if its fried. But, where is the little critter?
 

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What's a TIPM?
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I'm familiar with the IPM (front fuse box) and the PDC (rear fuse box) acronyms but just never saw the TIPM used that much. Like the adage says "you learn something new everyday".

Anyway, back to the original question ... "There must be a way to pull a TIPM and check to see if its fried. But, where is the little critter? "

To get under the IPM:
Disconnect and isolate the battery negative cable (in the trunk)
Remove battery cable from the IPM (see images below)
Disengage the outboard retaining clip, and rotate the IPM to access wire harness connectors.
Disconnect wire harness connectors from IPM.
Disengage the two inboard retaining clips.
Remove IPM

123655


123656


123657


PDC is in the trunk

123658

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I'm familiar with the IPM (front fuse box) and the PDC (rear fuse box) acronyms but just never saw the TIPM used that much. Like the adage says "you learn something new everyday".

Anyway, back to the original question ... "There must be a way to pull a TIPM and check to see if its fried. But, where is the little critter? "

To get under the IPM:
Disconnect and isolate the battery negative cable (in the trunk)
Remove battery cable from the IPM (see images below)
Disengage the outboard retaining clip, and rotate the IPM to access wire harness connectors.
Disconnect wire harness connectors from IPM.
Disengage the two inboard retaining clips.
Remove IPM

View attachment 123655

View attachment 123656

View attachment 123657

PDC is in the trunk

View attachment 123658
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Thanks, for the diagram.

Ok, nearly my whole waking time I'm obsessing over what could be wrong. I turn the key to start the car and all of the idiot lights come on including the security light; but engine does nothing. Sometimes, if I wait 5 minutes to 10 minutes I hear the fuel pumps engage and the security light goes out; then I can start, well usually, sometimes the engine turns over but doesn't start so then I have to wait again. I checked all of the mini fuses today to make sure they were all good; they were. I've been reading about pulling fuse 11 (I think that is in the front TIPM) or pulling the IOD fusable link; but I'm hesitant to do either of those. So, I put my OBD reader on to see if I had any codes - my reader couldn't connect with the car until the security light went out. When I checked for codes there were no codes.

Ok, I turned a few wrenches back in the early 70's and continue to restore 50's and 60's cars. So, I was hoping someone here could walk me through the starting procedure. For an older vehicle, you turn the key and power goes to the coil and starter. So, for a 2009 Charger, when you turn the key where does the power go?
 

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IGNITION SWITCH (KEY-ON) MODE
This is an Open Loop mode.
During Open Loop modes, the PCM receives input signals and responds only according to preset PCM programming. Input from the oxygen (O2S) sensors is not monitored during Open Loop modes.
When the fuel system is activated by the ignition switch, the following actions occur:
² The PCM pre-positions the idle air control (IAC) motor.
² The PCM determines atmospheric air pressure from the MAP sensor input to determine basic fuel strategy.
² The PCM monitors the engine coolant temperature sensor input. The PCM modifies fuel strategy based on this input.
² Intake manifold air temperature sensor input is monitored.
² Throttle position sensor (TPS) is monitored.
² The auto shutdown (ASD) relay is energized by the PCM for approximately three seconds.
² The fuel pump is energized through the fuel pump relay by the PCM. The fuel pump will operate for approximately three seconds.
² The O2S sensor heater element is energized via the O2S relays. The O2S sensor input is not used by the PCM to calibrate air-fuel ratio during this mode of operation.

ENGINE START-UP MODE
This is an Open Loop mode. The following actions occur when the starter motor is engaged.
The PCM receives inputs from:
² Battery voltage
² Engine coolant temperature sensor
² Crankshaft position sensor
² Intake manifold air temperature sensor
² Manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor
² Throttle position sensor (TPS)
² Starter motor relay
² Camshaft position sensor signal
The PCM monitors the crankshaft position sensor. If the PCM does not receive a crankshaft position sensor signal within approximately 3 seconds of cranking the engine, it will shut down the fuel injection system.
The fuel pump is activated by the PCM through the fuel pump relay.
Voltage is applied to the fuel injectors with the ASD relay via the PCM. The PCM will then control the injection sequence and injector pulse width by turning the ground circuit to each individual injector on and off.
The PCM determines the proper ignition timing according to input received from the crankshaft position sensor.

More details of the actions that occur when the starter motor is engaged.
² If the PCM receives the camshaft position sensor and crankshaft position sensor signals, it energizes the Auto Shutdown (ASD) relay and fuel pump relay. If the PCM does not receive both signals within approximately one second, it will not energize the ASD relay and fuel pump relay.
The ASD and fuel pump relays supply battery voltage to the fuel pump, fuel injectors, ignition coil, (EGR solenoid and PCV heater if equipped) and heated oxygen sensors.
² The PCM energizes the injectors (on the 69° degree falling edge) for a calculated pulse width until it determines crankshaft position from the camshaft position sensor and crankshaft position sensor signals.
² After determining crankshaft position, the PCM begins energizing the injectors in sequence. It adjusts injector pulse width and controls injector synchronization by turning the individual ground paths to the injectors On and Off.
² When the engine idles within ±64 RPM of its target RPM, the PCM compares current MAP sensor value with the atmospheric pressure value received during the Ignition Switch On (zero RPM) mode. Once the ASD and fuel pump relays have been energized, the PCM determines injector pulse width based on the following:
² MAP
² Engine RPM
² Battery voltage
² Engine coolant temperature
² Inlet/Intake air temperature (IAT)
² Throttle position
² The number of engine revolutions since cranking was initiated

During Start-up the PCM maintains ignition timing at 9° BTDC.
.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
IGNITION SWITCH (KEY-ON) MODE
This is an Open Loop mode.
During Open Loop modes, the PCM receives input signals and responds only according to preset PCM programming. Input from the oxygen (O2S) sensors is not monitored during Open Loop modes.
When the fuel system is activated by the ignition switch, the following actions occur:
² The PCM pre-positions the idle air control (IAC) motor.
² The PCM determines atmospheric air pressure from the MAP sensor input to determine basic fuel strategy.
² The PCM monitors the engine coolant temperature sensor input. The PCM modifies fuel strategy based on this input.
² Intake manifold air temperature sensor input is monitored.
² Throttle position sensor (TPS) is monitored.
² The auto shutdown (ASD) relay is energized by the PCM for approximately three seconds.
² The fuel pump is energized through the fuel pump relay by the PCM. The fuel pump will operate for approximately three seconds.
² The O2S sensor heater element is energized via the O2S relays. The O2S sensor input is not used by the PCM to calibrate air-fuel ratio during this mode of operation.

ENGINE START-UP MODE
This is an Open Loop mode. The following actions occur when the starter motor is engaged.
The PCM receives inputs from:
² Battery voltage
² Engine coolant temperature sensor
² Crankshaft position sensor
² Intake manifold air temperature sensor
² Manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor
² Throttle position sensor (TPS)
² Starter motor relay
² Camshaft position sensor signal
The PCM monitors the crankshaft position sensor. If the PCM does not receive a crankshaft position sensor signal within approximately 3 seconds of cranking the engine, it will shut down the fuel injection system.
The fuel pump is activated by the PCM through the fuel pump relay.
Voltage is applied to the fuel injectors with the ASD relay via the PCM. The PCM will then control the injection sequence and injector pulse width by turning the ground circuit to each individual injector on and off.
The PCM determines the proper ignition timing according to input received from the crankshaft position sensor.

More details of the actions that occur when the starter motor is engaged.
² If the PCM receives the camshaft position sensor and crankshaft position sensor signals, it energizes the Auto Shutdown (ASD) relay and fuel pump relay. If the PCM does not receive both signals within approximately one second, it will not energize the ASD relay and fuel pump relay.
The ASD and fuel pump relays supply battery voltage to the fuel pump, fuel injectors, ignition coil, (EGR solenoid and PCV heater if equipped) and heated oxygen sensors.
² The PCM energizes the injectors (on the 69° degree falling edge) for a calculated pulse width until it determines crankshaft position from the camshaft position sensor and crankshaft position sensor signals.
² After determining crankshaft position, the PCM begins energizing the injectors in sequence. It adjusts injector pulse width and controls injector synchronization by turning the individual ground paths to the injectors On and Off.
² When the engine idles within ±64 RPM of its target RPM, the PCM compares current MAP sensor value with the atmospheric pressure value received during the Ignition Switch On (zero RPM) mode. Once the ASD and fuel pump relays have been energized, the PCM determines injector pulse width based on the following:
² MAP
² Engine RPM
² Battery voltage
² Engine coolant temperature
² Inlet/Intake air temperature (IAT)
² Throttle position
² The number of engine revolutions since cranking was initiated

During Start-up the PCM maintains ignition timing at 9° BTDC.
.
AWESOME!
OK, since the car doesn't crank, when the key is turned, I'm going to start my trouble shooting at the camshaft and crankshaft sensors to see if they're compromised some how.
 

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AWESOME!
OK, since the car doesn't crank, when the key is turned, I'm going to start my trouble shooting at the camshaft and crankshaft sensors to see if they're compromised some how.
Wow. Can the obd reader connect to the ecm? Is your reader able to give you the advanced U B C codes as well as powertrain?

I'm pretty sure if it was sensors. You would definitely get codes. Sounds like a tipm issue for sure. Hit the local auto wreckers and pick one up. Just make sure it's the same engine. If you have fog lights .... you might lose them if the car/donor tipm don't have. No big deal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
IGNITION SWITCH (KEY-ON) MODE
This is an Open Loop mode.
During Open Loop modes, the PCM receives input signals and responds only according to preset PCM programming. Input from the oxygen (O2S) sensors is not monitored during Open Loop modes.
When the fuel system is activated by the ignition switch, the following actions occur:
² The PCM pre-positions the idle air control (IAC) motor.
² The PCM determines atmospheric air pressure from the MAP sensor input to determine basic fuel strategy.
² The PCM monitors the engine coolant temperature sensor input. The PCM modifies fuel strategy based on this input.
² Intake manifold air temperature sensor input is monitored.
² Throttle position sensor (TPS) is monitored.
² The auto shutdown (ASD) relay is energized by the PCM for approximately three seconds.
² The fuel pump is energized through the fuel pump relay by the PCM. The fuel pump will operate for approximately three seconds.
² The O2S sensor heater element is energized via the O2S relays. The O2S sensor input is not used by the PCM to calibrate air-fuel ratio during this mode of operation.

ENGINE START-UP MODE
This is an Open Loop mode. The following actions occur when the starter motor is engaged.
The PCM receives inputs from:
² Battery voltage
² Engine coolant temperature sensor
² Crankshaft position sensor
² Intake manifold air temperature sensor
² Manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor
² Throttle position sensor (TPS)
² Starter motor relay
² Camshaft position sensor signal
The PCM monitors the crankshaft position sensor. If the PCM does not receive a crankshaft position sensor signal within approximately 3 seconds of cranking the engine, it will shut down the fuel injection system.
The fuel pump is activated by the PCM through the fuel pump relay.
Voltage is applied to the fuel injectors with the ASD relay via the PCM. The PCM will then control the injection sequence and injector pulse width by turning the ground circuit to each individual injector on and off.
The PCM determines the proper ignition timing according to input received from the crankshaft position sensor.

More details of the actions that occur when the starter motor is engaged.
² If the PCM receives the camshaft position sensor and crankshaft position sensor signals, it energizes the Auto Shutdown (ASD) relay and fuel pump relay. If the PCM does not receive both signals within approximately one second, it will not energize the ASD relay and fuel pump relay.
The ASD and fuel pump relays supply battery voltage to the fuel pump, fuel injectors, ignition coil, (EGR solenoid and PCV heater if equipped) and heated oxygen sensors.
² The PCM energizes the injectors (on the 69° degree falling edge) for a calculated pulse width until it determines crankshaft position from the camshaft position sensor and crankshaft position sensor signals.
² After determining crankshaft position, the PCM begins energizing the injectors in sequence. It adjusts injector pulse width and controls injector synchronization by turning the individual ground paths to the injectors On and Off.
² When the engine idles within ±64 RPM of its target RPM, the PCM compares current MAP sensor value with the atmospheric pressure value received during the Ignition Switch On (zero RPM) mode. Once the ASD and fuel pump relays have been energized, the PCM determines injector pulse width based on the following:
² MAP
² Engine RPM
² Battery voltage
² Engine coolant temperature
² Inlet/Intake air temperature (IAT)
² Throttle position
² The number of engine revolutions since cranking was initiated

During Start-up the PCM maintains ignition timing at 9° BTDC.
.
Tried replying without quoting.

Anyway, I only had time yesterday to check the cam sensor wires. Turned the key to on, same thing happens all of the idiot lights come on and the security light blinks. Check for power to the cam sensor, I had 5V for about three minutes and then nothing. Waited until the security light went out and checked the power to sensor and I had 5V. Just before the security light went out the, I think, the manifold control came on and when I went to the cab the security light was out.
Today, it rained buckets and I'm leaving for Texas tomorrow for two weeks. Had to rent a car to do the traveling. We'll see what else I can find when I get.

To Dave Chart, my reader does check the powertrain and it didn't pickup any codes. I'll check when I get back for a donor TIPM. I did find a place in Carson, Calif, that rebuilds the TIPM.
 

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checked the power to sensor and I had 5V.
The PCM supplies 5V to the sensors that require it; primary and secondary.

Primary 5–volt supply:
² supplies the required 5 volt power source to the Crankshaft Position (CKP) sensor.
² supplies the required 5 volt power source to the Camshaft Position (CMP) sensor.
² supplies a reference voltage for the Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor.
² supplies a reference voltage for the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) sensor.

Secondary 5–volt supply:
² supplies the required 5 volt power source to the oil pressure sensor.
² supplies the required 5 volt power source for the Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) (if car is not equipped with ABS).
² supplies the 5 volt power source to the transmission pressure sensor (if equipped with an RE 4-speed automatic transmission).
.
 
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